Using Drumagog 3.0.4 via midi with BFD-some questions

[animix]

This is my first attempt at this so I will itemize the procedure I'm using and the related questions/problems I have.

First of all, I am using Cubase SX 3.1.994 as my host audio application. I have 11 individual drum tracks in the project. there are two mics on kick, two mics on snare, OHL, OHR, hihat, floor tom, ride tom and a L & R pair of room mics.

I am sending each of these tracks out of Cubase SX to a digital mixer for summing OTB so there are 56 ADAT outputs feeding the mixer from Cubase SX and the particular kick tracks I'm wanting to replace with BFD samples are being output to ADAT 1 & 2 of an RME HDSP 9652. The latency between Cubase SX and the mixer is 2 samples. The mixer is outputting digitally to a Benchmark DAC-1.

What I want to try initially is to replace the kick drum tracks with BFD kick samples.

1. I add a pair of midi tracks to the project (one for each kick track)

2. I install "BFD All" in the project as a VSTi and set the kick track in BFD to output to the same ADAT 1 & 2 that the original kick tracks are using for audio output to the mixer.

3. The Drumagog settings on page 1 are set to the default.

4. The Samples page is blank. Since Drumagog seems to need something in here to use to trigger, even in midi mode, I add a .gog sample to give it something to use. I would like to use a sample from the track but the "Add From Track" function does not bring up the subsequent box that should allow Drumagog to "Listen" and then add the original samples. Since I will only be wanting to monitor the BFD samples anyway, this isn't really critical, but it's worth noting.

5. The Advanced page is set to output midi with Drumagog and BFD using channel 10 (I can't see channel 10 in Drumagog-a situation previously noted in other threads on this forum-so I count to 10 and it works fine )
I set the note number in Drumagog to match the note # in BFD that corresponds to the BFD kick drum of the kit I have chosen.

6. In Cubase SX v3x, I duck the fader on the kick drum audio track that has Drumagog instantiated and raise the fader on the "record enabled" midi track that is outputting the BFD kick sample through the kick channel (with this fader also raised) of "BFD All" that is outputting to ADAT 1 out (the same channel that is outputting the original -and now ducked- kick track). I hear the kick drum that is being output through BFD just fine. There is, however major latency on this track relative to the remaining drum tracks which are not being processed by Drumagog....enough to make the scenario basically unusable. I have tried every permutation for latency compensation that I see available in Drumagog and Cubase has PDC set to function fully.

I have a fairly powerful workstation here that really has no issues operating at 64k buffer settings on 40+- track projects, but I have tried various buffer settings on my RME hardware, just in case, and I experience the same latency regardless of the settings.

I'm wondering what I'm doing wrong here. I'm certainly not ruling out pilot error. I must say that with the exception of trying to use midi (ie. using .gog, .wav files) this newest incarnation of Drumagog is working really well and quite frankly, the .gog files sound good enough for prime time. Since I've got a small bundle invested in BFD however, it would be nice to be able to use it with no latency, if possible.

I'm also wondering if this is just midi latency in Cubase SX that I'm encountering.

Thanks for any feedback that might help
Robert Joyce
ASUS A8V-Deluxe
AMD 64 4200 X 2
4G Corsair CAS2.
Matrox G450
Magma
2 x RME HDSP 9652 PCI
1 x RME Multiface PCI
4 x UAD-1's (v4.1)
Cubase SX v3.1.1.944.
Wavelab v5
Ivory
GPO
Halion Player
NI B4 II
BFD
Drumagog 4.0

[zumbido]

Sounds like you are doing what I do a lot.

Quickly, I have a pretty fast PC with Cubase 5, RME Digiface and Drumagog playing BFD. I use my PC mostly for drum replacing and running GigaStudio.

I just 'print' the MIDI tracks and manually nudge them back. The latency is consistent so nudging back works well. I'll then record BFD (on my PC) to Pro Tools (on my Mac) and sometimes do further +/- nudging.

I'm curious (unless I am misunderstanding) why you are using both original kick tracks to generate MIDI via Drumagog and then playing BFD when one is all you'd need - same for the snare.

For the latency problem, the only thing I can suggest doing (since it's what I sometimes do) is to nudge FORWARD the audio tracks that you want to replace by some predetermined amount. You'd have to experiment, but it's a number that is consistent from one session to the next.

I do this since I often play GigaStudio on my PC 'from' Logic Audio on a second Mac - of which, both are slaved to my primary Mac running PT. I 'advance' all the Logic tracks by a predetermined amount.

This could get complicated if you to utilize ducking.

I've bailed on that technique. I just replace everything now - Drumagog for the drums and DrumTools for the cymbals & hihat, with all the sounds coming from BFD.

Most of my latency issues are due to running 3 computers, though. Latency is a fact of life - I guess. But I have it worked out pretty well.

[animix]

Sounds like you are doing what I do a lot.

I'm curious (unless I am misunderstanding) why you are using both original kick tracks to generate MIDI via Drumagog and then playing BFD when one is all you'd need - same for the snare.

<snip>

Most of my latency issues are due to running 3 computers, though. Latency is a fact of life - I guess. But I have it worked out pretty well.

I couldn't get BFD to output any sound unless there was something in the sample window of Drumagog. I realize it isn't important which sample since the BFD samples are what will be heard. I guess i was just wanting to see the *listen* feature to work, and I couldn't get this happening

I'm also running 3 x computers synced to a common clock. I've got. last I looked, 97 digital inputs and 97 digital outputs routed/interconnected. I use one computer for a standalone FX processor, track to a Paris DAW with Paris, RME and Mytek converters then fly the tracks over LAN to my third DAW running Cubase SX which is slaved via ADAT sync to the Paris DAW. I then apply mono processing with outboard compressors and UAD-1 processors in Cubase SX and then stream the tracks back over the digital matrix to the Paris DAW via lightpipe for outboard processing on panned aux busses, track panning and summing. The Paris summing bus is the best digital summing I have heard so far. There are 5 x different gain stages available in the Paris mixer which can be pushed and pulled like an analog board, it uses 56 bit processing and it rounds at digital zero instead of going into hard clipping, unless pushed to massive extremes. The machines are timeline locked so that the Paris transport controls the start/stop functions and fader/FX automtion is done on both DAWs during mixdown. As long as I'm using Cubase SX as the host application during mixdown, the PDC feature keeps everything strack as far as latency is concerned.

Regards,

[zumbido]

Awesome system!

I believe that you are right that Drumagog always NEEDS a sample loaded. I didn't think about that but I do always have something loaded in Drumagog (usually the techno/909 kick that comes with Drumagog) since I only use the BFD sounds.

I seem to remember that I tried to have Drumagog generate MIDI from a 'live' audio input without a sample loaded in and nothing happened.

Seems that with all the different ways everyone is using Drumagog, it's quite an adaptive piece of software.

Give DrumTools Performance Designer a look. I usually write the crash cymbal and hihat parts by listening to the original drum takes (once the kick, snare and toms have been replaced the original cymbals/hihat become excruciatingly weak sounding). But the hihat is always a bit time consuming. So, I found DrumTools and now compose the hihat with that. It has some 'special' algorithms (or some such hocus-pocus) to make part 'feel' better - it never sounds exactly the same when it's looping. I'm real happy with it.

[animix]

Awesome system!

I believe that you are right that Drumagog always NEEDS a sample loaded. I didn't think about that but I do always have something loaded in Drumagog (usually the techno/909 kick that comes with Drumagog) since I only use the BFD sounds.

I seem to remember that I tried to have Drumagog generate MIDI from a 'live' audio input without a sample loaded in and nothing happened.

Seems that with all the different ways everyone is using Drumagog, it's quite an adaptive piece of software.

Give DrumTools Performance Designer a look. I usually write the crash cymbal and hihat parts by listening to the original drum takes (once the kick, snare and toms have been replaced the original cymbals/hihat become excruciatingly weak sounding). But the hihat is always a bit time consuming. So, I found DrumTools and now compose the hihat with that. It has some 'special' algorithms (or some such hocus-pocus) to make part 'feel' better - it never sounds exactly the same when it's looping. I'm real happy with it.

I haven't tried generating midi from Drumagog. If I need midi, I just track it to Cubase SX, drop whatever VSTi on it that is appropriate and then set the VSTi to a digital output and play it straight across to the summing DAW. This works flawlessly in SX due to the PDC.

I do see your point though. If you had some less-than-great drum tracks, you could convert them to midi by dropping Drumagog on them, sending this out as pitch-to-midi, open BFD on the midi tracks and then record them back as audio. that seems like a roundabout way to achieve what Drumagog/BFD is designed to do when it's released.

Have you been able to use the "listen" function in Drumagog? I know it shouldn't be any kind of big issue. I just always wander if it's me or not when I can't get something to work (it's usually me)