hey there,
i'm pretty new to drumagog and sound replacement.
my question does not necesarily deal with drumagog itself but the midi recording.
my plan is to trigger an acoustic set via midi, replace the snare, kick and toms with samples and record the cymbals as they are. that means the cymbals sound should be captured with overheads.
now, how do i approach this?
first of all, i'll always have the acoustic kit sound on my cymbal tracks. secondly, will i get synchronization problems between the midi (latency) tracks and the overhead tracks?
i hope you know what i mean.
is this a very common way to record, or is there anything better you can suggest?
thanks in advance
recording: midi with a-cymbals
"... my plan is to trigger an acoustic set via midi, ..."
Not sure what you mean here.
Do you have triggers ON your acoustic kit instead of mics? And mics on the overheads and hihat?
With triggers or mics, this is easy enough.
I record full drumkits with mics (not triggers) and can successfully totally replace kick, snare and toms while retaining the original mic'd hihat and overheads (with the usual bleed from the drums) without any timing/latency issues. Retaining the hihat and overheads is really a good thing to 'authenticate' the overall drum sound.
I would assume triggers would work as well.
Since Drumagog Platinum, I've abandoned the MIDI technique.
However, you should be able to simply load gog samples (or even aif or wav samples) into each instance of Drumagog for each drum to be replaced.
And, in your case (assumming the trigger method) you'll be utilizing Drumagog via MIDI instead of audio. This set up on the 'Advanced' page.
With Drumagog at the level it is currently at, you can get away with really cheapo mics, since all you require is an impulse. And this is exactly what the triggers are providing.
If your cymbal parts are primarily crashes, you might try replacing those (manually) with samples. I go into the overheads track and crash-by-crash find the begining of the crash sound and with that 'marker' insert a crash MIDI note. If you are a good MIDI editor you can get good at replacing a ride cymbal with this method, albeit it's considerably more tedious.
The one instrument that I ALWAYS try to retain is the original hihat. It's just way to difficult to replicate with MIDI, unless the part can get away without all the nuances. A lot times it can.
If you can utilize BFD via Drumagog (technically you can) you can use the stereo overhead, room and PZM virtual mics. Then you can totally abandon the live overhead mics.
With the triggers-to-MIDI-to-Drumagog, I can imagine you might have some VERY slight latency that can easily be nudged at the final stage.
It should work.
Not sure what you mean here.
Do you have triggers ON your acoustic kit instead of mics? And mics on the overheads and hihat?
With triggers or mics, this is easy enough.
I record full drumkits with mics (not triggers) and can successfully totally replace kick, snare and toms while retaining the original mic'd hihat and overheads (with the usual bleed from the drums) without any timing/latency issues. Retaining the hihat and overheads is really a good thing to 'authenticate' the overall drum sound.
I would assume triggers would work as well.
Since Drumagog Platinum, I've abandoned the MIDI technique.
However, you should be able to simply load gog samples (or even aif or wav samples) into each instance of Drumagog for each drum to be replaced.
And, in your case (assumming the trigger method) you'll be utilizing Drumagog via MIDI instead of audio. This set up on the 'Advanced' page.
With Drumagog at the level it is currently at, you can get away with really cheapo mics, since all you require is an impulse. And this is exactly what the triggers are providing.
If your cymbal parts are primarily crashes, you might try replacing those (manually) with samples. I go into the overheads track and crash-by-crash find the begining of the crash sound and with that 'marker' insert a crash MIDI note. If you are a good MIDI editor you can get good at replacing a ride cymbal with this method, albeit it's considerably more tedious.
The one instrument that I ALWAYS try to retain is the original hihat. It's just way to difficult to replicate with MIDI, unless the part can get away without all the nuances. A lot times it can.
If you can utilize BFD via Drumagog (technically you can) you can use the stereo overhead, room and PZM virtual mics. Then you can totally abandon the live overhead mics.
With the triggers-to-MIDI-to-Drumagog, I can imagine you might have some VERY slight latency that can easily be nudged at the final stage.
It should work.
thank you zumbido for your broad answer.
by triggering via midi i just meant the following:
i use ddt trigger and i wanted to use the midi-out of my alesis dm5 which goes into my audio interface.
and you're basically saying that i should not use the midi function but record with the alesis trigger samples and replace them afterwards with drumagog?
good to hear that the bleed is not so bad in the end.
i won't try to sample any cymbal because i agree with you that the real cymbals sound retains the authentic sound of the whole kit.
well, i guess i proceed after the try and error principle then to see whether there's latency or not.
as far as i know now, i've 3 alternatives to try out.
1. route the midi from my module into my sequencer and replace them
2. use the module's trigger samples and replace them afterwards
3. use mics and replace them.
issues:
1. possible latency, no separate tracks
2. only one track as well. how can i use drumagog here to replace every instrument on the drums?
3. i'd need an interface with at least 6 inputs, mine has two.
thanks
by triggering via midi i just meant the following:
i use ddt trigger and i wanted to use the midi-out of my alesis dm5 which goes into my audio interface.
and you're basically saying that i should not use the midi function but record with the alesis trigger samples and replace them afterwards with drumagog?
good to hear that the bleed is not so bad in the end.
i won't try to sample any cymbal because i agree with you that the real cymbals sound retains the authentic sound of the whole kit.
well, i guess i proceed after the try and error principle then to see whether there's latency or not.
as far as i know now, i've 3 alternatives to try out.
1. route the midi from my module into my sequencer and replace them
2. use the module's trigger samples and replace them afterwards
3. use mics and replace them.
issues:
1. possible latency, no separate tracks
2. only one track as well. how can i use drumagog here to replace every instrument on the drums?
3. i'd need an interface with at least 6 inputs, mine has two.
thanks
Here's what I'd try first:
Assuming you have five or six triggers (i.e., kick, snare and 3-4 toms), a hihat mic and two overhead mics.
Run the the five/six triggers into the Alesis. Send all the MIDI from the five/six drums into your sequencer. Set the four audio outs to send separate kick & snare and stereo toms to your sequencer (assuming it will record audio as well).
Also send the hihat and two overheads' mics to your sequencer/DAW.
You may need a mixer (with mic preamps) BEFORE your audio card unless your audio card accepts line AND mic level inputs as well as MIDI.
In your DAW set up: kick, snare and stereo toms' audio tracks (for the incoming audio from the Alesis). Also, a MIDI track to record the combined MIDI from the Alesis. You'll later want to 'split out', 'explode' or separate this combined MIDI track into separate MIDI tracks that correspond to kick, snare and individual toms.
You'll also need three audio tracks for your hihat and two overheads' mics.
Next, you'll need to experiment and determine if using the MIDI or audio from the Alesis gives you the best results.
Concerning the stereo-audio toms, you'll need to go in and separate these into individual tracks to later insert individual instances of Drumagog. This can be tedious, but all you require are the 'spikes' from the individual toms.
To just get your parts into the computer, I'd hold off on using Drumagog 'live'. The latency may be too much considering the chain of devices that you have. But, try it.
You may find a combination of audio and MIDI that works best. Having BOTH MIDI and audio of the drums, you'll be able to visually nudge +/- or see how much latency you have to deal with. And, latency is a fact of life.
If you trek into the world of quantizing audio (i.e., BeatDetective), beware! It'll become exceedingly time-consuming and tedious with the combination of MIDI, audio and latency issues. But, it can be mastered.
Assuming you have five or six triggers (i.e., kick, snare and 3-4 toms), a hihat mic and two overhead mics.
Run the the five/six triggers into the Alesis. Send all the MIDI from the five/six drums into your sequencer. Set the four audio outs to send separate kick & snare and stereo toms to your sequencer (assuming it will record audio as well).
Also send the hihat and two overheads' mics to your sequencer/DAW.
You may need a mixer (with mic preamps) BEFORE your audio card unless your audio card accepts line AND mic level inputs as well as MIDI.
In your DAW set up: kick, snare and stereo toms' audio tracks (for the incoming audio from the Alesis). Also, a MIDI track to record the combined MIDI from the Alesis. You'll later want to 'split out', 'explode' or separate this combined MIDI track into separate MIDI tracks that correspond to kick, snare and individual toms.
You'll also need three audio tracks for your hihat and two overheads' mics.
Next, you'll need to experiment and determine if using the MIDI or audio from the Alesis gives you the best results.
Concerning the stereo-audio toms, you'll need to go in and separate these into individual tracks to later insert individual instances of Drumagog. This can be tedious, but all you require are the 'spikes' from the individual toms.
To just get your parts into the computer, I'd hold off on using Drumagog 'live'. The latency may be too much considering the chain of devices that you have. But, try it.
You may find a combination of audio and MIDI that works best. Having BOTH MIDI and audio of the drums, you'll be able to visually nudge +/- or see how much latency you have to deal with. And, latency is a fact of life.
If you trek into the world of quantizing audio (i.e., BeatDetective), beware! It'll become exceedingly time-consuming and tedious with the combination of MIDI, audio and latency issues. But, it can be mastered.
this is the first problem i encountered: my alesis dm5 has a "main l/r" and an "aux l/r" output. i can assign either "main" or "aux" to a trigger channel.zumbido wrote: Set the four audio outs to send separate kick & snare and stereo toms to your sequencer (assuming it will record audio as well).
that makes two different trigger channels since i can't assign the left or right separately.
so how do i get the audio into cubase on different tracks?
thanks
In the Alesis, pan the kick to 'main left' and the snare to 'main right'?
Next (assumming that you are using three toms) pan the high tom to 'aux left', mid tom to 'aux left/right' (it'll be in the center) and low tom to 'aux right'.
You should be able to set up mono kick and snare tracks and stereo toms' tracks in your DAW. Monitor in mono.
The hard part will be editing the mid tom OUT and creating a third audio track to move it to.
It seems that the easiest way would be to record MIDI from the Alesis into Cubase and separate (is it 'explode' in Cubase?) these five tracks. Then set up a separate Drumagog for each.
It'll work either way.
Next (assumming that you are using three toms) pan the high tom to 'aux left', mid tom to 'aux left/right' (it'll be in the center) and low tom to 'aux right'.
You should be able to set up mono kick and snare tracks and stereo toms' tracks in your DAW. Monitor in mono.
The hard part will be editing the mid tom OUT and creating a third audio track to move it to.
It seems that the easiest way would be to record MIDI from the Alesis into Cubase and separate (is it 'explode' in Cubase?) these five tracks. Then set up a separate Drumagog for each.
It'll work either way.
