Sonar, Drumagog & MIDI Loopback.

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MKS
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Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2005 6:28 pm

Sonar, Drumagog & MIDI Loopback.

Post by MKS »

Congrats on the new forum.

But I still haven't figured out how to use Drumagog via a midi loopback with Sonar.

Regardless, drumagog is worth every penny.

Here's what I got:

Drumagog 4.2
Sonar 5 PE
DirectiXer 2.5

Original Thread is located here:

http://www.drumagog.com/forum/viewrepli ... 4&tid=3397
Rim
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Posts: 408
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2005 11:08 pm

Post by Rim »

Some new information on using Drumagog's MIDI output with Sonar:

This setup only works with the latest version on DirectiXer (v2.5):

1. Install DirectiXer. When installing, make sure you choose to also install the MIDI loopback device (it's checked by default).
2. After installing, open the DirectiXer management console, and add Drumagog to it's list of plugins. To do this, click the add button at the top, then browse for Drumagog.dll. It's usually located in C:\Program Files\Steinberg\VST Plugins.
3. Open Sonar, then click Options, MIDI Devices. Select the DirectiXer midi device as an available midi device on the left. This is very important.
4. Insert Drumagog on a track.
5. At the top of the Drumagog window, make sure "Send MIDI to host through loopback driver" is enabled. This is the button with a picture of two notes.
6. In Drumagog's advanced page, enable "midi out", then set the midi port to "internal".
7. In Sonar, create a new MIDI track. Set the midi input to "DirectiXer loopback", and the midi output to whatever device you want to send midi to.
8. Record-enable this new midi track.
9. If you press record on the transport, you should see the midi events being recorded on the midi track.

Best Regards,
Rim Buntinas
WaveMachine Labs, Inc.
MKS
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Post by MKS »

Thanks Rim. I tested this setup and it works perfectly. I was only 1
step off (step 5). I feel pretty stupid now.

But, I really appreciate your help. This will be going into use today!!
joybreaker
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Post by joybreaker »

"5. At the top of the Drumagog window, make sure "Send MIDI to host through loopback driver" is enabled. This is the button with a picture of two notes. "
Which button is this exactly? I can't seem find it...Should this be found in the version 4.02 ?
Rim
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Post by Rim »

Which version of DirectiXer are you using? As far as I know, the current version does have this option at the top of the window.
joybreaker
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Post by joybreaker »

2.5.

The problem was I had added Drumagog to track always as a VST instrument, not as a a DirectX plugin or whatever its called :) But now the button is there, thanks.
Jayl
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Post by Jayl »

I read this, I've tried everything, but it still doesn't work for me. I'm using Sonar 4, and no matter what I do, nothing happens. I play it back, I record to the new midi track, and there is nothing there, no sound. I am really confused. It also makes this high pitched beep about every 30 seconds.

Here is a screenshot. Someone please tell me if i need to change anything, and what my problem could be. Thanks

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d170/ ... ed-1-1.jpg
Rim
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Posts: 408
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2005 11:08 pm

Post by Rim »

I would recommend using midi yoke instead of directiXer. You can download it here: http://www.midiox.com


Best Regards,
Rim Buntinas
WaveMachine Labs, Inc.
joybreaker
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Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2007 12:26 pm

Post by joybreaker »

Rim wrote:Some new information on using Drumagog's MIDI output with Sonar:

This setup only works with the latest version on DirectiXer (v2.5):

1. Install DirectiXer. When installing, make sure you choose to also install the MIDI loopback device (it's checked by default).
2. After installing, open the DirectiXer management console, and add Drumagog to it's list of plugins. To do this, click the add button at the top, then browse for Drumagog.dll. It's usually located in C:\Program Files\Steinberg\VST Plugins.
3. Open Sonar, then click Options, MIDI Devices. Select the DirectiXer midi device as an available midi device on the left. This is very important.
4. Insert Drumagog on a track.
5. At the top of the Drumagog window, make sure "Send MIDI to host through loopback driver" is enabled. This is the button with a picture of two notes.
6. In Drumagog's advanced page, enable "midi out", then set the midi port to "internal".
7. In Sonar, create a new MIDI track. Set the midi input to "DirectiXer loopback", and the midi output to whatever device you want to send midi to.
8. Record-enable this new midi track.
9. If you press record on the transport, you should see the midi events being recorded on the midi track.

Best Regards,
Rim Buntinas
WaveMachine Labs, Inc.
Ok, I've done all this, and the midi events are being recorded on the midi track. The problem is, they are recorded off time from the moment when the drumagog actually detects the hits (the samples are played at the right moment).

SEE THIS IMAGE:

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd27 ... 1189275882

What could be the problem? (I added those little white lines to the image with image editor to visualize the off time). + the notes are recorded to C6, aren't they supposed to be recorded to C4?

Any help clarifying and solving this whole situation would be highly appreciated, I bet there's lots of people having troubles with this same thing. Thanks.
Supersonic
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Post by Supersonic »

Your level of detail is the opposite of what it should be. Try moving it all the way, or at least 3/4 of the way to the right. That could help.
Supersonic Samples @ Drumagog
Heavy Hitters Edition Coming Soon!!!
zumbido
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Post by zumbido »

"+ the notes are recorded to C6, aren't they supposed to be recorded to C4?"

That has to do with your DAW setting. Not every DAW is C4=C4. Some are C4=C6. Simply set Drumagog 'down' two octaves.

As far as the alignment, it's hard to tell how much the offset is between the audio track and the MIDI track. There is going to always be some delay -- it takes time to do the audio-to-MIDI conversion.

Does your DAW have plug-in delay compensation? If not, figure out what the delay is and advance the audio track by that amount.

It's also difficult to tell if you are getting 'extra' MIDI notes from the bleed of another drum on the kick track (i. E., snare bleed). Is the threshold set right? Plus, if you can determine the time between the closest hits, set the 'RESOLUTION' to that value. This will help keep any 'extra' hits, that aren't from the kick, to be generated into MIDI.
joybreaker
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Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2007 12:26 pm

Post by joybreaker »

zumbido wrote:"+ the notes are recorded to C6, aren't they supposed to be recorded to C4?"

That has to do with your DAW setting. Not every DAW is C4=C4. Some are C4=C6. Simply set Drumagog 'down' two octaves.

As far as the alignment, it's hard to tell how much the offset is between the audio track and the MIDI track. There is going to always be some delay -- it takes time to do the audio-to-MIDI conversion.

Does your DAW have plug-in delay compensation? If not, figure out what the delay is and advance the audio track by that amount.

It's also difficult to tell if you are getting 'extra' MIDI notes from the bleed of another drum on the kick track (i. E., snare bleed). Is the threshold set right? Plus, if you can determine the time between the closest hits, set the 'RESOLUTION' to that value. This will help keep any 'extra' hits, that aren't from the kick, to be generated into MIDI.
zumbido and supersonic, thanks guys a lot. really fast and good answers, brilliant.
I simply put the magog two octaves down and now I get C4s, great.

to me it seems strange still if this off time thing was about delay? maybe this pic will demonstrate it more clearly:

http://s222.photobucket.com/albums/dd27 ... ckrec2.jpg

so, what it does it, it actually records notes to the midi track BEFORE the actual hit is (at least logically and when the actual samples get played) detected in drumagog? so it's not delay its the opposite? how is this happening and how to fix?
zumbido
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Post by zumbido »

Looks as if you DO have plug-in delay compensation. Maybe review that setting in SONAR.

Does the MIDI input have some sort of 'auto quantizing' setting? In other words, does the MIDI get quantized during input? This could be 'forcing' the advance. Just guessing on this one.

Try either using a different setting (SIMPLE or ADVANCED) in the 'Triggering Engine' box.

For what it's worth, I use the SIMPLE setting.

Next, since the MIDI notes are ahead of the audio, can you determine what the difference in time is?

I'm not familiar with SONAR and I don't see any indication of tempo. But it looks as if the MIDI is an eighth note ahead.

For example, if the tempo is 120 BPM, then a quarter note equals 500 milliseconds and an eighth note equals 250 ms. Two things you can try. First, advance the audio track going into Drumagog by 250 ms (or exactly what the value is in your example); or, if you can increase the delay IN Drumagog by using the slider in the 'Triggering Engine' box. I don't know if the slider value can go this high.

Sorry I can't be very specific as I don't experience this particular frustration. Having said that, I do encounter a lot of 'delay management issues' on every production I do.

I suspect there are some settings in SONAR that should first be addressed before fussing too much with Drumagog.

Hopefully, a SONAR user will chime in.
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