Latency issues with Drumagog Platinum / BFD2 / Protools 7.4

[Klaas Berings]

Hi There,
I recently bought Drumagog Platinum & BFD2, but I don't get them working together without latency in Protools HD3 7.4 on a G5 DP 2.0 GHz with 5GB RAM.
I've read all the threads on the forum about the way they should be installed (the fixed latency version inserted first, then BFD2), I've set delay compensation to long and enabled, installed the latest updates for both. I've also contacted FXpansion, but unfortunately they couldn't help me out on this.
It seems that manually nudging the "drumagogged" tracks by 80ms makes sense, although it's not 100% accurate. I still experience flams between the original and the processed tracks.
Besides it should work instantly, without nudging tracks.
Any ideas for a solution??? Thanks a lot!

[Matt W]

Hello,

Do you only have the latency issues when using Drumagog with BFD? If you haven't tried, change the Drumagog sound from "BFD" to one of the Drumagog Gog Files and see if there is any improvement. Also, are there any other plugins on the audio track containing Drumagog? If Drumagog (Fixed Latency) is off 80ms, then Pro Tools is not compensating at all, usually because the total compensation for the track is over the limit (even in long mode), so check what the total compensation is for that track.

The best way to troubleshoot the above is with a clean, one-track project. Import a kick or snare track from another project, add Drumagog to an insert, and check the delay compensation. If Drumagog is still delayed 80ms, then re-install Drumagog, and make sure you're using the latest version, 4.11a. We need to make sure Drumagog is working by itself first and then can see if it's a problem communicating with BFD.

[Klaas Berings]

Hey Matt,
Thanks for your reply. Actually I didn't try a one-track project yet (although I had no other plug-ins inserted in this project), but I did try using GOG files and those seem to work just fine. I might try a Drumagog re-install, but I do believe it's a problem between the two plug-ins anyway.
As far as I can remember, the delay compensation was somewhere about 3500 or 3600 samples, but I can't double-check this until monday...Keep you posted!
Cheers,
Klaas

[Klaas Berings]

Hey Matt,
I've tried a clean project, with only a master track, an imported kick track and an aux track with BFD, but still no improvements at all. I've also tried 16 bit in stead of 24 bit, but the problem remains.
Drumagog itself works fine, with a correct delay compensation, no problem at all, but as soon as I use BFD samples I manually have to nudge the track to make it sound right.
I could try reinstalling Drumagog, but I really don't think this will solve things...
Cheers,
Klaas

[Matt W]

Do you have any latency if using BFD by itself, i.e. triggering it via MIDI without Drumagog in the project? Re-installing probably would only help if Drumagog had problems when running on it's own, but it sounds like it's working by itself. The usual cause of the issue you're describing is the track compensation amount goes above the limit, but if you can confirm it, check that it's above/below. Also note that even when you add Drumagog first and then BFD, that if you then later add a second Drumagog, you need to start over and remove BFD from the project, add a second Drumagog and then re-add BFD.

You mentioned also you have the latest versions of Drumagog and BFD, can you check the specific versions, especially if it's the release version of BFD or their current open beta build.

[Klaas Berings]

No latency when using BFD standalone or as a plugin triggered by midi. Track compensation is 3567 samples, so still under 4095...
I'm using Drumagog 4.11 and BFD PUBLIC BETA #2 V. 2.1.0.33, I recently upgraded from V. 2.0.5.10, cause I thought this might help. I also checked the "load samples in RAM" option of BFD and loaded only a kick in stead of a whole kit.
And I'm aware of the procedure of removing BFD before adding another Drumagog.
Could it have something to do with my system? It's certainly not the newest G5, although I've read a thread somewhere from someone who uses the newest 8-core Mac Pro and experienced a similar latency problem...

[Matt W]

The cause here can be a couple of things. First, there is the difference between how "off" they are. If you need to move the resulting track 80ms (the total latency amount of Drumagog Fixed Latency), then the Pro Tools delay compensation is not working. It should be consistent, though, and not vary at all. If everything is set-up correctly, then I'm not sure what the cause is, as we haven't seen this before.

If you need to nudge tracks a couple of milliseconds (or less) only, then that's not latency, but just Drumagog's Auto-Align not "placing" the sample perfectly. If this is the case, then you should try some of the other Auto-Align options under the Advanced tab, like try running in Peak mode, or switch the Auto-Align "Optimize for" option between General/Bass Drum and Snare modes.

The more different the two sounds, i.e. the original and the replacement, the harder it is for Drumagog to guess where the replacement sound should go. Drumagog and BFD actually communicate alignment information, where BFD transmits information on the specific BFD sound you select, so that Drumagog can use Auto-Align to place it, instead of just triggering it like it was a MIDI instrument (making it much more accurate than MIDI can ever be).

[Ron Rocco]

Hi,
I'm certainly no expert, but to me, this is a problem with Drumagog, and BDF2 communicating. Probably more on the side of BFD2. I have successfully been using Drumagog on sessions. I have no problem using the samples that come with Drumagog, but as soon as I use BFD2, the timing makes no sense. I'm still in the early stages, trying to tweak it, but so far it's disappointing to say the least. No urgency here because the samples that came with Drumagog sound darn good. I'm just hesitant to purchase other libraries, since I've already dumped a good amount on BFD2. I do believe answers will surface, as the staff at Wave Machine Labs will most likely figure it out, even if it's on the BFD side. Thanks, Ron

[Klaas Berings]

Hey Ron,
Thanks for your message. I guess you're right, although it seems a bit awkward to me to advertise with a well working combination of two separate plug-ins, while in practice they don't get along very well. Hopefully it's a matter of time and development, cause it would be awesome to trigger BFD2 without any timing problems. At the end, the BFD samples sound a lot more convincing than the Drumagog library...with respect...

[Ron Rocco]

Hi,
In an effort to keep people from wild goose chasing. I don't believe it's the compensation in Pro Tools. I use an 8 processor Mac running the latest version of Leopard. My Host is Digital Performer 6. Drumagog triggers BFD2, but in no meaningful way. The timing is total jibberish. Very disappointing, although, I'm confident that someone will get to the bottom of this very soon.
I have no problem triggering any other sample, and I have no latency at all when triggering BFD2, via midi. I hope this helps to unravel the mystery. I'm going to keep at it, as well. I will chime in, if I find something, although, I'm probably not the sharpest knife in this drawer of experts. Thanks, Ron

[Ron Rocco]

Hi, Ok, first I have it working! The bad news, is I can't tell you what I did. Last night I did update to the latest Beta from FXpansion. Tonight, just for the heck of it I used the same session of mine that gave me jibberish. I'm getting some really great kick and snare sounds. BFD2 responds even better than the other libraries. Very easy to work with. I have to get some sleep, but before I go. I'm using OSX Leopard 10.5.6. I user Motu Digital Performer 6, and a Mac Pro 8 processor 2.8 ghz machine, with 8 gig of memory. I will set this up again tomorrow night, and see if I have the same luck. I really don't understand why it was so bad last night, except for maybe the upgrade to the Beta. It's the only thing I did differently. I will keep at this, and I will say that this is worth the wait, so keep your heads up. Thanks, Ron

[Ron Rocco]

Hi, Not much new, but I am still up and running. It must have been upgrading to the Beta on FXpansion, and then restarting. I almost feel guilty that mine is working. I know how frustrated, I was to hear BFD2 triggering, but in a very useless manner. I'm still confident that it will get figured out very soon. I am still trying to see if I can make it occur again, because I don't need it to happen when I'm doing a paid session, or one for my own band for that matter. Even when people aren't paying they expect you to get it right. It seems solid, but for me I need simply to get better at the concept of what to trigger and what not to. For me I think it will be a combination of both. Thanks, and wish I had more to offer. Ron

[Klaas Berings]

Hey Ron, Thanks for your words... I'll first upgrade to OSX 10.5 and PT8 and hopefully that'll make a change
Cheers,
Klaas

[Ron Rocco]

Hi, Well, I'm now mixing down, and athough, I do have it playing back fine, I have major timing issues, when I try to record the triggered BFD2 play back. Again, it's way, way, ahead of the track. What good is this? I'm sort of surprised FXpansion hasn't fixed this yet. I don't even see any real discussion on it. At this point, the session has to go on with real drum sounds. I'm not all that good at getting the kick and snare to the level of BFD2, but I'm out of time. We'll have to keep our fingers crossed. Thanks, Ron

[Platinum Samples]

That's Pro Tools HD's ADC kicking in.... you can try disabling ADC for the track or increasing the buffer size in Pro Tools... the exact same thing happens with Digi's own drum replacement software.

Rail